Wednesday, January 24, 2007

Hell and Hades

This is what I emailed to Pastor Keddie. It's followed by his response to me. We'll discuss this on Monday.

What happened to Body and Soul of Jesus at His death?

(1) The soul passed immediately into heaven (WSC #37)
Luke 23:43--And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
2 Cor. 5:1--1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor.5:6-8-- Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Phil. 1:23-- But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
1 Thes.4:14--For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
>If Jesus is fully human and fully divine, his soul should have immediately gone to heaven.
>John 20:17--Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
My explanation: Jesus’s soul went to heaven at his death, but was reunited with his body at his resurrection. This body & soul had not yet ascended to heaven
(2) The body remained in the grave until His resurrection. (WSC #37)
John 5:28-29--"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, / and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



What Happened to the Souls of Believers Who Died Before Christ?

(1) Enoch & Elijah went body & soul to heaven. Even though they were given this special honor because they walked with God, they were still sinners because of Rom. 3:23. Therefore at least 2 souls made it to heaven before the sacrifice of Jesus. This indicates to me that the souls of all who were looking forward to the death of Christ passed into glory at their deaths.
Romans 3:21-26--But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(1) Matthew Poole:
For the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; he means, either the sins committed before justification, while God bore so patiently with the sinner, and did not presently take the forfeiture; or else the sins committed under the Old Testament, before the proposed propitiation was exposed to the world, when God so indulged our fathers, as to pardon them upon the account of what was to come: see #Heb 9:15-18.
(2) Matthew Henry
That all who by faith are interested in this propitiation have the remission of their sins that are past. It was for this that Christ was set forth to be a propitiation, in order to remission, to which the reprieves of his patience and forbearance were a very encouraging preface. Through the forbearance of God. Divine patience has kept us out of hell, that we might have space to repent, and get to heaven. Some refer the sins that are past to the sins of the Old Testament saints, which were pardoned for the sake of the atonement which Christ in the fulness of time was to make, which looked backward as well as forward. Past through the forbearance of God. It is owing to the divine forbearance that we were not taken in the very act of sin.
(2) Their bodies obviously remain in the grave till the resurrection.


What Happens to Souls of Unbelievers at Death

(1) Their bodies are obviously in the grave until the resurrection
(2) Do their souls go to Hades or Hell or are they the same?
Luke 16:19-31-- "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. 20 "And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 "But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 "And he said, ‘Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 "But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 "But he said, ‘No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 "But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’"
(3) Are Sheol and Hades the same thing? Donnelly says that each of these words are used in scripture in at least two senses, the grave where all people go and the place of punishment where only unbelievers go. He also says that the KJV correctly varies its translation of “Sheol” according to context from “pit” to “grave” to “hell.”
(4) What does Rev. 20:13 mean if Hades and hell are the same thing? Is Hades just referring to the grave in this verse?
Rev.20:13--And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.



ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
1. The Westminster documents clearly say that the souls of believers go to heaven at death, but I don’t think they speak to the issue of what happens to the souls of unbelievers at death. Is this because the Westminster divines didn’t agree? Scripture seems clear about the souls of believers, but it doesn’t seem to be clear for unbelievers. It does seem logical that if there’s no intermediate place for believers that there would not be for unbelievers either.
2. Do you believe that the Apostles’ Creed is a true statement of the Christian faith?
3. What is meant by he “descended into hell”?
I have found three possible explanations that I think come from a reformed point of view.
(a) Calvin’s: this refers to the suffering on the cross when all of God’s wrath was
poured out on Christ. It ended when Jesus said, “It is finished.”
(b) It refers to Jesus going down to heaven to set free the souls of those believers
who died before the crucifixion.
1 Peter 3:18-20
Psalm 107:6
Zechariah 9:11
(c) In J.G. Vos’s Commentary on WLC he states that the word was Hades and
Gehenna and that it simply refers to the “realm of the power of death.” He says
that WSC #27 substitutes “continuing under the power of death for a time” for
“descended into hell”.
Do you agree with any of these? Is any considered heresy? Are there reformed people who believe that there is an intermediate state, Hades, before the final judgment?From
:
Gordon & Jane Keddie
To
:

Subject
:
Re: Hell and Hades
Date
:
Wed, Jan 24, 2007 11:12 AM



Betty
The RCs (cf Dante) held that the good people under the OT were in the
limbus patrum (a place of happiness apart from heaven and purgatory) and
were released by the 1 Peter 3 preaching of Christ to the spirits in prison
(or the descendit ad inferos in the later versions of the Apostles Creed,
which was not written by the apostles).
Against that
1. the Bible has no separate places in addition to heaven and hell - no
Limbo (patrum or infantum) and no Purgatory. Texts used are hopelessy
misexegeted.
2. Sheol/Hades is simply a refrence to the state of death as if it were a
place (and if you are not alive you are not here - so you are somewhere
else)
3. Jesus did not descend into hell, and did not pay any ransom to the Devil
(as Anselm proposed). I Pet. 3:19 is a reference to the gospel as witnessed
to in former ages by Christ by the Spirit. The Apostles Creed is a 2nd? to
5th C? document, and the descent into hell was the last addition to it -
representing the defective views already beginning to grip the church.
Calvin Institutes Bk II, chap 16 has a few paragraphs on this and rejects
the idea of a literal descent into Hell the place, but sees it as
representing Christ's bearing the pains of hell for his people - on the
cross, under the Father's wrath.
Hope that helps
Gordon

Here are some commentaries on Luke 16:23 & Rev. 20:13 .
Matthew Henry
Luke 16:23-- His state is very miserable. He is in hell, in hades, in the state of separate souls, and there he is in the utmost misery and anguish possible. As the souls of the faithful, immediately after they are delivered from the burden of the flesh, are in joy and felicity, so wicked and unsanctified souls, immediately after they are fetched from the pleasures of the flesh by death, are in misery and torment endless, useless, and remediless, and which will be much increased and completed at the resurrection. This rich man had entirely devoted himself to the pleasures of the world of sense, was wholly taken up with them, and took up with them for his portion, and therefore was wholly unfit for the pleasures of the world of spirits; to such a carnal mind as his they would indeed be no pleasure, nor could he have any relish of them, and therefore he is of course excluded from them. Yet this is not all; he was hard-hearted to God's poor, and therefore he is not only cut off from mercy, but he has judgment without mercy, and falls under a punishment of sense as well as a punishment of loss.
Rev. 1:18--Fourthly, With his office and authority: I have the keys of hell and of death, a sovereign dominion in and over the invisible world, opening and none can shut, shutting so that none can open, opening the gates of death when he pleases and the gates of the eternal world, of happiness or misery, as the Judge of all, from whose sentence there lies no appeal.
Rev.6:8--1. The name of the rider - Death, the king of terrors; the pestilence, which is death in its empire, death reigning over a place or nation, death on horseback, marching about, and making fresh conquests every hour. 2. The attendants or followers of this king of terrors - hell, a state of eternal misery to all those who die in their sins; and, in times of such a general destruction, multitudes go down unprepared into the valley of destruction. It is an awful thought, and enough to make the whole world to tremble, that eternal damnation immediately follows upon the death of an impenitent sinner.
Rev. 20:13--the grave shall surrender the bodies of men, hell shall surrender the souls of the wicked, the sea shall surrender the many who seemed to have been lost in it.

Matthew Poole
Luke 16:23--Ver. 23,24. Kai en tw adh, And in hell. The world hath been filled with disputes about the true signification of the word adhv, which is here translated hell. The most probably true notion of it is, that it signifies, the state of the dead, both of the dead body, and so it often signifieth the grave, and of the departed soul. A very learned man saith, that if he mistakes not, this is the only text in Scripture in which by it is to be understood the place of torments. The Hebrew word which is translated by this, far more often signifying the place of the blessed, whither the saints and patriarchs went when they died, than the place whither sinners went; but #Lu 16:24 makes it appear, that here it signifies hell, properly so called, as it imports the place of the damned. We must understand our Saviour in this whole diatupwsiv to speak to us figuratively, that by things which we understand we might comprehend spiritual things. Heaven and hell are at too great a distance for souls in each to discourse one with another: neither have souls any eyes to lift up. We are by this taught:
1. That as the souls of good men, when they leave their bodies, go into a state of eternal bliss, where are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and enjoy a felicity which we are not able to express, but is set out to us under the notion of Abraham’s bosom, to let us know that it is a place of rest, and communion with saints, and the same felicity which Abraham the friend of God doth enjoy: so the souls of wicked men, when they leave their bodies, shall go into a place of torments, the greatness of which being such as we are not able to conceive, they are expressed to us under the notion of being tormented by fire.
2. That it will be a great part of the misery of damned souls, to understand those to be in a state of happiness whom they in this life have scorned, despised, and abused, and, it may be, have been instruments to hasten them to those blessed mansions.
3. That there will come a time when the proudest sinners will be glad of the help of the meanest saints, if they could obtain it. Father Abraham, (saith the rich man), send Lazarus, that Lazarus whom when alive I suffered to lie at my gate full of sores, and would not relieve.
4. That the state of the damned will be void of the least degrees of comfort and satisfaction. The rich man desireth but a cooling of his tongue with so much water as could be brought upon the tip of Lazarus’s finger.
5. That the tongue is a member, the abuse of which will in another life lie very heavy upon lost souls. Rev.1:18--
And have the keys of hell and of death; and have a power to kill, and cast into hell; or, I have the power over death, and the state of the dead, so as I can raise those that are dead to life again: I have the command of death, whether temporal or eternal; as he who hath the keys of a house can let in and shut out of it whom he pleaseth, so I bring to heaven and throw to hell whom I please.
Rev.6:8—Ver. 8. A pale horse; a horse of the colour of his rider, Death, which makes men look pale, and bringeth them into the state of the dead, (here translated hell), whether heaven or hell, as they have lived.
Rev. 20:13-- By hell is meant all places where the dead are; whosoever shall be at that day in the state of the dead; the bodies of men, whether buried in the earth or sea; and the souls of men, whether they be in the place of torments or happiness, shall all be re-united to their bodies, that they may both in soul and body receive their final doom of eternal happiness, or eternal misery, accordingly as they have lived in the world; and those who shall be alive at that day, who shall be changed, (as the apostle speaks, #1Co 15:51), are to be counted dead in the sense of this text, their change being instead of death to them. It is not said they shall be judged for their works, (though that as to the wicked is true), but
according to their works; which is true as to the elect, who though their names be written in the book of life, yet must work righteousness; and they shall have judgment of absolution, not according to the perfection, but the sincerity, of their works, done in obedience to the will of God.

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